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I *knew* you were a Puritan
Posted at Crossroads by Conscientious Objector on Wednesday,
June 13, at 4:12 AM
In reply to If they don't offend, it's okay posted by Concerned
& Angry
Thank you, ma'am, for revealing your true colors at last. For a while there I thought you were going to continue your masquerade as a person who simply hates all people of the boylove orientation. Now the truth emerges.
No doubt you are expecting all of us to applaud you for saying that you don't have any objection to a pedophile who keeps his pants zippered and lives a chaste life. Probably some of the others here will kiss your hand in gratitude; I ain't going to be one of them, ma'am. A bigot I can respect she's at least consistent. Someone who says that it's all right to be a boylover but not to have sex with a boy is inconsistent as hell.
Let me explain to you (as I once again brush up your appalling lack of knowledge of the history of sexuality) that we've heard this all before. Once upon a time gays were told that God loved them even though they were born with the despicable affliction of homosexual desires. All they needed to do to be kept from going to everlasting hell was not go to bed with anyone.
Some churches still preach this nonsense. (Brick has rightly rapped me over the knuckles for saying that all churches do. I now concede that some Christians are pro-gay, though how they reconcile a positive sexual creed with a flesh-hating religion is beyond my understanding.) Some churches, and some very foolish secular people, are continuing to try to make a distinction between a person's orientation and his act of lovemaking.
It just can't be done. That sort of attempt to divide the heart and mind from the body is Puritanism. It's based on loathing of the body and an unwillingness to admit the joys of carnal knowledge.
If you say that it's okay to be a boylover, you can't say that it's wrong to love a boy sexually. Quite honestly, I find some of the statements along these lines by my fellow boylovers to be highly embarrassing. (Yes, I particularly have in mind a certain Christian Webmaster, but I won't go on again about his penchant for posting prim messages about the evils of masturbation.) It's like listening to slaves talk about how happy they are to serve their masters.
Conscientious Objector, because he won't put on his Uncle Tom hat and smile, smile, smile
You keep talking about yourself!
Posted at Crossroads by Concerned & Angry on Wednesday,
June 13, at 4:49 PM
In reply to I *knew* you were a Puritan posted by Conscientious
Objector
Me, me, me that's all you pedophiles talk about. Who cares what joys you get from carnal knowledge (translation: molestation) of a boy. If you'd asked Jack the Ripper, no doubt he too would have given that spiel about not wanting to divide heart and mind from body.
What matters are the children, and you're ripping their hearts apart. How you ever got the idea that boylove has something to do with love is a mystery to me.
And I was not saying that it was all right to be a boylover, for God's sake. I was saying that if a pedophile seeks sexual recovery before he hurts a child, then he deserves a helping hand. "Boylovers" haven't admitted that they need serious psychiatric help, as you've just demonstrated.
I don't know why I spend so much time on this board; I have better things to do. Do you know what I was doing till midnight yesterday? Counselling a boy who was beaten daily by his father, then molested each night. The poor boy was so screwed up by what his father told him that he'd gotten it into his head that the molestation was his "reward" for being good. Do you know where that boy will be in ten years' time? Having daily counselling sessions with a therapist, trying to figure out how to form normal relations with women. (Or men. I keep telling you, I have nothing against any consensual sexual activity between adults.)
I know this because that's what my son's been doing recently; he's been trying to break past the terrible memories of his molestation so that he can have a good relationship with his girlfriend. He can't even find the strength to tell her "I love you," because he associates that phrase with his molestation! He's trapped in a world where "I love you" means "I'm about to molest you," where "I want to take care of you" means "I want to force my penis into you," where "I'll do anything for you" means "I'm going to do things that will destroy your life."
God, I can't write any more. If only you could see my son, you'd understand.
CA stands for Concerned & Angry & Weeping
CA talks about "me, me, me"
Posted at Crossroads by Conscientious Objector on Thursday,
June 14, at 5:30 AM
In reply to You keep talking about yourself! posted by Concerned
& Angry
O god of my fathers, give me patience to deal with morons like you. Once again you go on about your son as though he were the only boy in the world. Your son didn't like having sex with a man, so we should ban boylove. Jack the Ripper's victims didn't like being raped, so we should ban heterosexuality.
Try to get this through your head: Some boys like having sex with men.
Give me a break, ma'am. Take your sob stories to the little Christian tea parties you no doubt hold for like-minded fools.
Conscientious Objector, wondering why he bothers
YOU BASTARD!!!!! (nt)
Posted at Crossroads by Concerned & Angry on Thursday,
June 14, at 4:25 PM
In reply to CA talks about "me, me, me" posted by Conscientious
Objector
If I may intervene
Posted at Crossroads by Pedo-Hag on Thursday, June 14, at
4:35 PM
In reply to YOU BASTARD!!!!! (nt) posted by Concerned &
Angry
Concerned & Angry, I'm grateful to you for taking the time to post here while your son continues to struggle with his recovery. If you feel like taking a break to deal with difficult emotional issues, we'll all understand. But I hope that, when you feel calmer, you'll continue to provide us with the insight that you've received in working with survivors.
Conscientious Objector, I don't think you can accuse me of seeing this issue in black-and-white terms. I've said many times before that I don't believe that every young person under eighteen who has sex with someone eighteen or older is harmed by the experience. My mother married my father when she was 16 and he was 20, and she wasn't harmed by having sex at that age. (My father was, because he wasn't mature enough to take on the duties of fatherhood, but that's another story.)
So yes, I believe that some boys out there like having sex with men, and I think that some of those boys benefit from the experience. (Not all of them; enjoyment and well-being aren't always identical.) I suspect that the number of such boys is quite small, but I know that this is just intuition on my part, based on the various problems I see that could arise in man-boy sex.
What I can prove, from the very research that you respect, is that boylovers can't always tell when a boy is being abused. That study of the Dutch loved boys you so often cite contains a section in which the researcher shows that the behavior which boylovers interpret as sexual come-ons by boys they meet quite often turns out to be nonsexual behavior from the boys' point of view. If boylovers can be wrong about something so basic as this, then it's easy to understand how they could miss the signs that the boy they love is unhappy at having sex with them.
My father had no idea that I was miserable about having sex with him. He thought that the signs of physical pain I was showing were just due to occasional clumsiness on his part, and he thought that the emotional stress I was showing was simply the ordinary sort of moping that people in love engage in. I'm not saying that this type of misunderstanding arises only in boylove and girl-love; I've seen adult couples miss signals that their partner was sending. But I think that it's more likely to happen when men and boys get together, because adults and children think in essentially different ways. I remember this quite clearly from my own childhood: I kept wondering how adults could be the same species when they thought so differently.
Obviously there's no way to get around the fact that someone has to bring up children. We can't get rid of parenthood. But sex can be postponed to an age when it's less likely that tragedies will arise such as arose in the case of Concerned & Angry's son. I'll bet you anything that if CA's son's older friend had asked him to have sex when he was nineteen rather than nine, then CA's son would have had no difficulty articulating whether this was really what he wanted to do.
By the way, Conscientious Objector, I owe you a debt that you'll no doubt have mixed feelings to hear about. When I first arrived on this board, as you know, I was furious with my father for all of the wounds he inflicted on me when I was a teenager. I hadn't spoken to him in years, even since he got out of prison. But the longer I was here, the more I realized how things must have looked from his perspective how he honestly hadn't realized that he was abusing me. So I went to visit him a few months ago, and I showed him one of the posts you'd written about that boy you were seeing. I asked my father, "Is this how it was for you?"
And he broke down in tears, saying, "Yes, that was it. I thought you were in love with me."
So now, thanks to you and the others on this board, I'm at peace with my father again. I realize now how devastating it must have been for him to think that he was giving pleasure to the daughter he loved, only to learn how badly he'd hurt me. I hope that you and some others here will never have to undergo that experience with the boys you love.
Pedo-Hag
Co-Webmaster
Crossroads
* * *
"It's not just me," said Milano. "Anyone at my school who's different gets picked on. The foreign exchange kids, the kids who like poetry, kids from the poor side of the city . . . Last semester, a seventh-grader who's gay got his arm broken."
"It was like that at my school too," Johnnie agreed. He was seated in the desk chair, with his legs wrapped around the back, while Milano had taken over the bed that was strewn with textbooks and spiral notebooks. Milano was clutching a rollerball pen, as though making a record of his words as he spoke.
"Did you get picked on in school?" Milano asked.
"Well, middle school was hard for me at first, because I was a bit of a nerd. I liked schoolwork, you see, especially math. But in seventh grade I acquired a girlfriend, and that helped my standing with the other boys."
Milano looked crestfallen. Too late, Johnnie realized that recommending dating as a method of social advancement was probably not the best advice. He said quickly, "Not that she and I got along terribly well; we broke up after a few months. If I could have done it over again, I would have waited till college to date. Younger girls are notoriously fickle, going for the most musclebound guy or whatever. The people you meet in college are more mature. They have a better sense of what they want."
"Did you date in college?" Milano seemed to be making a great study of his pen, taking the cap on and off.
"Well, no, I didn't exactly date." Johnnie paused a moment to frame his answer in a truthful manner. "I wasn't romantically interested in anyone at that time. I had a close male friend, though, with whom I spent a lot of time, and that was just as good as dating would have been."
"Oh." Milano raised his eyes from the pen. Johnnie was suddenly seized with fear that he would be asked to describe his "male friend." He gestured toward the papers, saying, "The work you did today is great; I think you'll do excellently on the finals. Are you sure you want to keep up this studying once school lets out? I should think you'd want to get away from schoolwork during summer vacation."
"No, the math we do is fun. I like doing it with you."
Johnnie, reaching toward a paper at random, picked it up and made a show of reading it as Milano continued, "You know, I asked Mr. Thompson he's my social studies teacher about Plato, and he read me a bit from a story Plato wrote about friendship. It was called the Lacey The Lucy"
"The Lysias," Johnnie supplied, glancing up from the paper. He wondered which passage Mr. Thompson had read to Milano. Presumably not the part where the men in the gymnasium ogled the beautiful boys. "Yes, I read that dialogue in my college philosophy class. I liked how Plato portrayed the friendship between the two boys in the tale."
"Did you?" This seemed to be the right subject; Milano abandoned the pencil and leaned forward, resting his arm on his soccer ball beside him.
"Yes," said Johnnie, seeing his way clear now. "I have a friend who says that people in the modern world spend too much time thinking about dating you know, asking the girl to a dance, and so on. He says that, in ancient times, people valued friendships just as much as they value dating now. A friendship between two boys would be just as important to them as going out to the school prom with a girl."
Milano seemed completely absorbed now. Johnnie found himself wondering which boy at school Milano wanted to be friends with, and he had to thrust away a momentary touch of jealousy. He continued, warming to his theme, "The Greeks considered feelings of friendship to be a type of love. They had a special word for it" He caught himself in time, saying, "Well, I don't remember offhand what the word was. But the idea was that, if you weren't dating a girl, your life could still be really wonderful, provided that you had a special friend. . . . One who cared about you as you really were, not as everyone else thought you should be," he added. Then he waited to see whether Milano would say anything that would reveal whether the other boy was showing signs of being the special friend.
Milano seemed to grow suddenly shy, though, for he abandoned the soccer ball, lay down full length on his stomach, and began to finger through the papers. After a while, he said, "Yes, I thought that too. About friendship being a type of love, I mean."
"Oh?" Despite the importance of the coming announcement, Johnnie's gaze drifted over toward the computer, which was displaying a screen saver that looked like shimmering golden rain. He must tell Delius about that, he decided; he knew that Delius had been experimenting recently with making animated wallpapers for Free Spirits.
From the bed, Milano said in a low voice, without turning his head, "I love you, you know."
Johnnie felt the words shock through him as though his body had just turned to fire. For a moment he was silent, both because he could not breathe and because he was struggling to find the right words to say. Finally he said gravely, "I am honored."
Apparently it was the right response; Milano turned his head, relief written upon his face. "Do you love me?" he asked eagerly.
"Yes, of course." Johnnie tried to respond in the brisk, uncle-ish tones he had used with the twins. Apparently he succeeded too well, for Milano's face fell, and he turned back quickly to look at the papers.
Still struggling to make his lungs work, Johnnie gentled his voice and said, "I mean it. Of course I love you." And then, as Milano turned his face, hope returning to his expression, Johnnie added, "We've become friends, and that's nice, isn't it? Just like the boys in the Lysias. . . . Is that proof the one you did this afternoon? It's really good; I think I should show it to your mom. No, you stay here," he added as Milano handed him the paper and prepared to rise. "You can get started on those problems in the last section. I'll bet your teacher will spring one of those on you as a surprise, when you take your test."
He found Sandra where she often was, in her bedroom where the family television was kept. She was absorbed in an afternoon soap opera, her eyes riveted to the screen as she pulled a blouse off the hanger. Johnnie, feeling as though every sensation he had felt in the past few minutes must be written upon his face, said rapidly, "I just wanted to show you this construction Milano did of a dodecahedron. He's really progressing well; I think I might be able to take him up to non-Euclidean geometry this summer"
He stopped, startled out of his speech by the expression on Sandra's face. For a moment, he wondered whether she had overheard the conversation between Milano and him and somehow guessed the subtext taking place on his side. Then he realized that, above the waist, Sandra was wearing only a sports bra.
Before he could back out of the room, Sandra seemed to recover. She slipped on the blouse as Johnnie said, "I'm sorry. I should have knocked."
"It's my fault for leaving the door ajar," she said, her voice muffled by the cloth as she pulled it over her head. "I'm glad Milano's doing so well; it's kind of you to spend so much time with him. You like kids, don't you?"
"Yes," he replied in the greatest understatement of his life.
"I think Dave has a couple of daughters from his previous marriage. Do you know Dave? In customer service?"
"Yes, of course." He could not actually remember Dave at all, but there seemed no easy way to cut short this embarrassing interview.
"I heard that his relationship broke up recently."
"That's too bad," said Johnnie.
"Yeah, he was really cut up over it. He and his boyfriend had been together for five years, and they'd bought a house together." She smoothed down the cloth of her blouse, her ringless hands pale without their usual nail polish.
Sensing the reason behind this conversation, Johnnie found all his nervousness disappearing. He said gravely, "It must be hard to be with someone for a long time, then to be single again."
"It can be a bit lonely, yeah. There's Milano and his sisters, of course, but still . . ."
All of this touched too close to home for Johnnie. He found himself saying, "Are you still in love with Kim? Or could you start dating again?"
Sandra tossed her head in a shrug. "Yeah, well, you know how it is. All the good guys in the city are taken, or they aren't free for one reason or another. It's a tough world."
Johnnie did not reply at first. He was thinking of Gold Star and Pedo-Hag, and he was also thinking that, if he had been another boylover, he might have considered dating Sandra in order to spend more time with Milano. It would do her no harm in the short run. In the long run, though . . .
"Yes," he agreed. "It's a tough world."
* * *
The old man was where he always was, perched on the curbside, guarding his baskets of flowers. He caught Johnnie's eye and said, "Bouquet for your wife, sir?"
"I'm not married, thanks." Johnnie walked past him, but the old man was well versed in the ways of the city.
"Mistress?" he suggested. "Domestic companion? Life partner?"
"Thanks, no," said Johnnie, and left the old man trying to persuade a likely customer to buy a bouquet for his husband.
At the foot of the apartment building steps, Johnnie hesitated. It was only seven p.m.; Delius would not be home from class yet. But something tugged Johnnie away from the empty apartment awaiting him above, and he continued down the street to the shabby alleyway habitation.
The door was unlocked. Johnnie found Delius in his black room, sitting in front of his laptop, with his elbows on the table and his hands over his eyes. He didn't move as Johnnie stepped forward.
"What is it?" asked Johnnie, his voice rising in alarm. "Did the hackers crash the boards again?"
Delius thrust himself away from the desk and waved Johnnie into the seat. "See for yourself," he said.
Johnnie sat down, his gaze already moving over the post on the screen. After a moment, he said, "Oh, gods." Then a while later: "Oh, God."
* * *
Important news about a tragedy
Posted at BoyChat by A Regular on Thursday, June 14, at 6:40
PM
I'm a regular participant at this board, but I'm not posting this under my nick because the article below appeared in my local paper. It was published this afternoon; I've deleted some of the personal info.
~~~
Pedophile's "Love" Leads to Death of Boy
By Graham Brown
Mercury News Staff
RIVERSIDE A pedophile convinced a ten-year-old boy to kill himself yesterday after police learned of the man's "love affair" with the boy.
The unconscious body of Ben Walters, a pupil at Greenwoods Elementary School, was discovered in a cabin next to Rushing River after a police investigation revealed that the boy had been spending time with a man who sent him what Riverside Police Chief Arnold Nicholson described as "very sick letters about their 'love affair.'"
Ben, who was the son of Kenneth and Joan Walters of Main Street, was rushed to the hospital but never regained consciousness. His death is thought to have been caused by the ingestion of a bottle of tranquilizers.
Law enforcement authorities first learned of the boy's plight when a concerned citizen called the state police with information on a possible molestation of Ben by Daniel V, 19, who moved to Riverside last year. A search of Ben's home uncovered letters sent from V to Ben. Ben's parents say that they had known of the boy's friendship with V but had not suspected that their son was in trouble.
"His parents are completely devastated," a family representative told the Mercury News. "They knew about the dangers of pedophiles, of course, but this man seemed really ordinary."
A five-hour search of Riverside and surrounding countryside eventually resulted in the discovery of Ben's body in a disused cabin that lies on unclaimed property. Police say that they have evidence that V used to meet secretly in this cabin with the boy.
V was discovered lying unconscious near the boy, holding a note whose contents police refused to disclose. A witness to the scene, though, described the letter as being written jointly by V and Ben, and said that it was "a double suicide note, Romeo and Juliet style."
V was also taken to the hospital and is expected to recover. Nicholson says that he will be charged with first-degree murder and with possession of child pornography. It has not yet been decided whether to place an additional charge of child molestation.
Darren Franklin of the FBI's Sex Crimes Unit, who was consulted by local police on this case, warns that it is common for pedophiles to appear quite normal and to use pleasant methods to groom and lure children.
"It's a mistake to think of pedophiles as all being trench-coated men who grab kids and force them into alleyways," said Franklin. "The scariest thing about pedophiles is that they've convinced themselves that they actually love the children they molest."
Franklin especially warned against the new dangers posed by the Internet, where pedophiles often congregate.
Nicholson echoed Franklin's words, pointing out that evidence recovered from V's computer showed that he took part in an Internet message board under the nickname of "True Boylover." The message board, BoyChat, is described by Nicholson as a place where pedophiles meet to exchange tips on how to rape children.
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